Curse

makosi · Oct 09, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

As time goes on I grow to like Zealous and elemental weapon mods more than sundering or furious because I know what the result of a strike will be rather than using a lottery system. On bows, lengthened condition durations (especially Silencing) can be handy too.

I love finding sundering mods because it's easy pocket-money.

Shadow_7 · Oct 09, 2007, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I love finding sundering mods because it's easy pocket-money.

QFT. That's the way it is for me

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

No it's not, and since you obviously don't PvP, it's not worth explaining any further. No offence intended, but since you don't need to mitigate damage in 99% of PvE, there's no point trying to explain this to you, especially if my very simple explanation above did nothing but make you think about tricking AI.

If there is something useful to be said about people merely standing still at the back of a party when they could actually be doing something... anything.... then I'm just not seeing it (and especially not without an explanation). They aren't mitigating damage from anyone but themselves.... and if it comes down to that, why not mitigate all damage from the party by never setting foot outside the outposts?
What can I say? I'm exclusively a PvE'er. I can't "think PvP".
Sorry. I just don't find other people all that interesting. Besides... I can't effectively play mind-games with other meatbags due to their cognitive processes being too erratic and often irrational... AI is predictable in that it will respond to certain things and not to others, and always does it the same way. Meatbags on the other hand have the virtue of brute luck whereby sometimes they won't respond the way I'd like them to simply due to not paying attention or suddenly deciding to do things differently (I'd put counter-mind-play beyond many).

I would honestly only play PvP if I had the oppurtunity to carefully study all my opponents beforehand to analyse and prepare for all their strengths and weaknesses. I really don't do things on the fly too well.

Snow Bunny · Oct 09, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Are you one of those nutters who runs a Dervish with Forsaken insignias? Do you honestly believe that a Dervish will be below 50% health LESS than it will be without enchantments? This is the class which uses Enchants for health and energy management and upon which half their skills rely... remember?

Most dervs I've checked in obs mode don't use that many enchants, tbh. They will use Heart of Fury, sure, but that's up only what, 1/2 of the time? A lot of them use Pious Haste, and that will disrupt enchant management, hence, a lot of them might use 1-2 enchants, in which case the 15^50 will probably turn out better.

It's better just to suppose that your monks will do a good job with you, or, if you have the multi-tasking skills, you can make 20<50 weapons that will make it so that no matter what, you are always dealing 35-40% more damage.

I'd greatly prefer the the guaranteed 35-40% over a fairly conditional/strippable 35%.

EDIT: Just a spacing error

SotiCoto · Oct 09, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'd greatly prefer the the guaranteed 35-40% over a fairly conditional/strippable 35%.

*Shrugs*
I already went over all this with the others. While in some respects I agree.... there is the whole matter of Dervishes being built around the Enchant concept, and having a great many quickly recharging and easily stacked Enchants available (meaning a lot of covers against stripping)... versus the Dervish still being useful at less than 50% health.

Plus of course the key factor for me: I get a lot of 15/Ench inscriptions and not many 15^50... and since for the sake of the Dervish (at least in PvE) the two are practically interchangeable (Dervishes should be ^50% health AND Enchanted)... I prefer to go with the Ench Inscription and save the 15^50 for someone who needs it more.... like the Warrior.

Bryant Again · Oct 09, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'd greatly prefer the the guaranteed 35-40% over a fairly conditional/strippable 35%.

In terms of PvP yeah, it would be best to go with 15>50 as much as possible. Otherwise, it doesn't matter in any way whatsoever. Not to mention that in PvE you can prepare yourself better for it via checking the area map on a wiki or somin and seeing if anything disenchants.

EternalTempest · Oct 09, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Perfect Mod is easy, getting the max of the mod.

So a +1 Attribute 20% chance is perfect vs a +1 Attribute 19% chance (isn't perfect but would still use it).

Now if the mod is desirable, that a different story.

Bryant Again · Oct 09, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Perfect Mod is easy, getting the max of the mod.

So a +1 Attribute 20% chance is perfect vs a +1 Attribute 19% chance (isn't perfect but would still use it).

Now if the mod is desirable, that a different story.

Desirable = Perfect, apparentlly...

So ya I agree.

korcan · Oct 09, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

i believe that sundering mods on weapons are most desired because they work for almost every build.

mods like zealous or elemental damage mods normally work better on more specific builds.

i have multiple sets of mods on various weapons, so i normally go with what works best with the build im running.

Snow Bunny · Oct 09, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Desirable = Perfect, apparentlly...

So ya I agree.

Yeah.

We can argue over the semantics over what constitutes "perfect", but a very large portion will continue to consider 20/20 +30 to be perfect, at least in terms of melee. Whether this is right or not, you're going to find that that is what sells.

Darkobra · Oct 09, 2007, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

How long does it take with neither?
I mean... for instance... with Zealous, which won't do squat to direct damage.

Just so we have some sort of outside frame of reference. We need a "control" if you will to determine whether it is even worthwhile using EITHER of the above.

That's a very good question. I'll work on that sometime at the weekend. Or maybe some one else could find out. One other I was curious about was elemental mods and would they really help using no skills at all? That research will wait until weekend.

Sakkaku Kaikou · Oct 09, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I have to admit, save when I'm specifically using one of my elemental weapons, I'm one of those who often use the Sundering mods.
I've noticed the generally higher damage when I use my Vampiric weapon, and the Zealous bonus is nice, but I almost always forget to swap between battles, and having monked more than a fair share of times, I know how annoying it is when someone forgets to swap. So, usually, I would rather use my Sundering weapon than annoy the monk or clutter my inventory with Barbed/Crippling/Cruel/etc. weapons.
Of course, if I'm using an adrenaline build, my Sundering weapon is immediately kicked to the side. ;D

Punches · Oct 09, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

This is purely a language definition issue.

A perfect mod is technically any mod at maximum.

I was gonna say this but instead I'll just back it up.

moriz · Oct 10, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

a 20/20 sundering mod will give you more damage than zealous, or any elemental mod for most of the builds.

listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting.

sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable.

arcanemacabre · Oct 10, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a 20/20 sundering mod will give you more damage than zealous, or any elemental mod for most of the builds.

listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting.

sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable.

No, it isn't. Sundering is okay for spiking damage builds only. It has very specific uses. Vampiric is better than sundering for generic builds, period. Sundering is not dependable, and will really only get a good chunk of damage if it the user is lucky enough to have it go off on the right hit with a crit and an attack skill (adding Strength's armor pen modifier if warrior). Thus is best used on hammers, maybe axes, and only with certain builds designed for spiking.

Vampiric is an across-the-board DPS buff. If you're in PvE, this is much more desired - it means shaving seconds off battles, which means more efficient - better. I honestly think people like sundering more because they fear that -1 health degen. I really do.

I'm not saying Vampiric is the best and Sundering is the worst, I don't think anyone is saying that. The point is, Sundering is much like all the other mods in that it has its uses depending on the build. However, Vampiric makes the best "generic use" mod, because of its nature. That is my point.

-Loki- · Oct 10, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

If there is something useful to be said about people merely standing still at the back of a party when they could actually be doing something... anything.... then I'm just not seeing it (and especially not without an explanation). They aren't mitigating damage from anyone but themselves.... and if it comes down to that, why not mitigate all damage from the party by never setting foot outside the outposts?

Are you really that stupid? The whole point is to mitigate the damage hitting you, if the damage is overwhelming. It takes pressure off the monks, to let the team figure out why that damage is so overwhelming and what can be done about it. As I said, not needed in 99% of PvE.

Example: Monks are low on energy, and the constant pressure is hurting their energy even more. So, you stop running around overextended and take less damage because you start kiting instead of sitting in that enemy monks face taking loads of damage, and ask why you are taking so much damage. The monks tell you they are low on energy (in a pug, probably by pinging their energy) and you back off while they can regain a bit of energy. Not doing this leads to monks not being able to heal anyone, because you decided to not use common sense and back off, and they ran out of energy. This leads to a party wipe, because the monks, again, can't heal anyone. The warrior out front dies. The midline dies. The backline dies. Probably while retreating, which wouldn't have been necessary.

SotiCoto · Oct 10, 2007, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a 20/20 sundering mod will give you more damage than zealous, or any elemental mod for most of the builds.

listing a bunch of builds won't matter, simply because the fact is, sundering is the better choice for a large variety of builds. it is better most of the time. whether you can think up some skill combinations that are more effective with other mods is not really interesting.

sundering is better most of the time for a large variety of builds. that's why it's so desireable.

Do you know where all my Sundering Daggers are now?

... One pair (Xuekao's Daggers) is in storage... and only because they still have +20% Enchanting. The other (Lou's Korambits)... I'm pondering either giving to Zenmai (whom I never use) or merching completely since it is taking up storage space and proving to be completely useless to me now (now that I don't use Flashing Blades any more).
My weapon sets consist of two dagger-pairs, one bow and one staff... and of those, three have enchanting mods (one dagger-pair, bow and staff), two are zealous (both sets of daggers) and one is vampiric (the bow).
Sundering?
I laugh at Sundering. Leave that to folks with Scythes or Hammers if they're REALLY desperate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Are you really that stupid? The whole point is to mitigate the damage hitting you, if the damage is overwhelming. It takes pressure off the monks, to let the team figure out why that damage is so overwhelming and what can be done about it. As I said, not needed in 99% of PvE.

Then why the heck didn't you say so?

You were making it seem as if the half-damaged individual was running about like a headless chicken trying to stop other characters getting damaged by distracting the enemy.
What you're suggesting is what I will already do if trouble hits: Dash (or Bamf) out of aggro. And needed or not for most characters in PvE... it is the entirety of the survival process for most Assassins..... so YES... I know that.

-Loki- · Oct 10, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

Then why the heck didn't you say so?

You were making it seem as if the half-damaged individual was running about like a headless chicken trying to stop other characters getting damaged by distracting the enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Kiting isn't using skills to avoid combat or damage, kiting is moving to prevent damage. If there's a melee guy on you, move. He will be hitting less frequently. If you are being hit with projectiles, move as they fire at you, they will miss (ie dodge them). Damage mitigation through movement. Don't run around randomly, recognise what is hitting you and move to best mitigate the damage from that source.

Read. Comprehend. Post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

What you're suggesting is what I will already do if trouble hits: Dash (or Bamf) out of aggro. And needed or not for most characters in PvE... it is the entirety of the survival process for most Assassins..... so YES... I know that.

And I was saying you don't need those skills to do it. Simply moving is effective enough.

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 10, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Soticoto.

1) Sundering > your face.
2) You should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick long enough to warrant a 15%ench inscription) on a Dervish. Anymore and you're probably running some stupid Mystic Regen build that does hardly any damage, which is all you need in PvE.
3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SotiCoto

For what it is worth... I don't tend to think much of folk who sit around at the back doing no more than contemplating what they got wrong. Hitting things is FAR more useful, even if it could potentially result in them dying.

You're so, so, bad at Guild Wars.

Cebe · Oct 10, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

2) You should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick long enough to warrant a 15%ench inscription) on a Dervish. Anymore and you're probably running some stupid Mystic Regen build that does hardly any damage, which is all you need in PvE.

K'know, skills like Faithful Intervention stay on until your health drops below 50%. Also, other enchantments such as Heart of Fury stay on for a reasonably length of time, and if used with Eternal Aura can be kept up for quite a long time also. As you say, Mystic Regen can be reapplied quickly if need be...there are plenty of Dervish enchantments which you wouldn't want to strip, meaning a Dervish would usually be enchanted all the time, unless the build was centered around no enchantments, or Mystic Sandstorm, for instance.

Saying "you should only be running 1-2 enchants (none of which stick around long enough...)" is a very sweeping statement that can be proved wrong in oh so many ways. That being said, I still believe that a 15^50 weapon is no worse than a 15%(ench) weapon on a Dervish, and given the choice, I would still use the former as it requires less effort and less thought, and is probably more useful for a variety of builds, including the few which do not rely on enchantments. Also, hey, I'm lazy.

As for the Sundering debate, everyone is throwing opinions around, but noone is providing any numbers.